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Didier Verna's Scientific Blog - Tag - Weak Typing - Comments Didier Verna's scientific blog: Lisp, Emacs, LaTeX and random stuff. 2024-01-31T17:45:28+00:00 Didier Verna urn:md5:a22c53786aff986a2da4c770c233a8f9 Dotclear The Return of Segfaults - markcox urn:md5:67f641ec65f442cf39670f9c41520eb0 2015-08-15T03:23:55+02:00 2015-08-15T02:23:55+02:00 markcox <p>The door to no safety has always been open with Common Lisp. See CLHS 1.4.4.3. An implementation is not required to detect invalid types at run time unless the operator is specified to do so. A great example is (aref v -1).</p> The Return of Segfaults - Didier urn:md5:6f6d756053579c1f6fc5d53354962dfc 2015-08-06T15:59:00+02:00 2015-08-06T14:59:00+02:00 Didier <p>My 2 cents, the future is in the ability to mix dynamic types and strong+explicit+static ones. The whole area of research around "gradual typing" is going in that direction.</p> <p>More generally, I've always believed that general purpose programming languages should always strive for being as multi-paradigm as possible, which in fact they do even against their original goals or designers, because real life is just like that. In history, I can see 3 major areas of paradigm mutual exclusion: imperative/procedural vs. functional, dynamic vs. static types and explicit vs. automatic memory management.</p> <p>The first war is over: everybody now understands the importance of the functional paradigm (e.g. both C++ and Java have lambdas).</p> <p>The second war is almost over: more and more languages are attempting to mix static and dynamic types (e.g. Racket but also F# etc.).</p> <p>So I predict (ahem) that one of the next big challenges for future programming languages will be to provide the ability to mix garbage collection and explicit memory management.</p> The Return of Segfaults - hydan urn:md5:5b07267a5541aae361392c73ac758c18 2015-08-06T14:07:40+02:00 2015-08-06T14:45:32+02:00 hydan <p>&gt; Yes, Common Lisp's weak, optional type system is an antiquated thing.</p> <p>What would be an improvement over it? is that what Racket is doing? I am really curious if there is any research happening on this.</p> The Return of Segfaults - Dmitri Hrapof urn:md5:2803116969e81d6a12f96c192a9ac18f 2015-08-05T20:18:12+02:00 2015-08-05T19:18:12+02:00 Dmitri Hrapof <p>In speed-critical functions: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0)) in production, (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (safety 0) (debug 3)) otherwise...</p> The Return of Segfaults - mmontone urn:md5:1c239348d4355bb333c352f05e3a018b 2015-08-05T19:43:20+02:00 2015-08-05T18:49:14+02:00 mmontone <p>Another supposedly dangerous thing are non-hygienic macros. But again, in practice, I have never had a symbol-name clash. Just use gensym and you are done.</p> The Return of Segfaults - Didier urn:md5:c0d12ed9ba6c371ceea3a66ba1e7c316 2015-08-05T19:05:12+02:00 2015-08-05T18:05:12+02:00 Didier <p>Thanks for your comments, BTW, I'm rephrasing the ambiguous parts.</p> The Return of Segfaults - Didier urn:md5:977809fe61757569a6c69ab6b6e0e0a4 2015-08-05T18:59:59+02:00 2015-08-05T17:59:59+02:00 Didier <p>Granted, (safety 0) globally is abusive. I was really talking about the actual risk of breaking type safety with optimization in production code.</p> <p>As for scoping, you're right, but I was not talking about the expressiveness of the paradigms here, only the dangers, and I think the biggest danger with dynamic scoping is name clashes.</p> The Return of Segfaults - luis urn:md5:43a80405a1642ddaa8b75ae1703fa321 2015-08-05T18:23:21+02:00 2015-08-05T17:23:21+02:00 luis <p>Safety 0 in production, globally? No! Why? :-) Even in specific functions, it's probably a bad idea. There are always bugs and flawed assumptions... I've seen some very strange results happening due to declaims like that, notably treating NIL as though it were some random structure and trying grab a value at some offset.</p> <p>Lexical vs dynamic scoping is not just about name clashes, it's about closures, isn't it? Closures are what I miss when I only have dynamic scoping. (Thankfully Emacs has had lexical scoping for a while now. ;-))</p>